MINUTES OF MEETING

                                          PORT OF THE ISLANDS

                            COMMUNITY IMPROVEMENT DISTRICT

            The regular meeting of the Board of Supervisors of the Port of the Islands Community Improvement District was held Friday, March 15, 2002, at 10:00 a.m. at the Egret Room, 25000 Tamiami Trail, Naples, Florida.

            Present and constituting a quorum were:

 

            Richard Gatti                                         Chairman

            Bernard Wolsky                                    Supervisor

            Ted Bissell                                              Supervisor

            John Robinson                                       Supervisor

 

            Also present were:

 

            Darrin Mossing                                     District Assistant Manager

            Daniel Cox                                              District Counsel

            Ronald Benson                                      District Engineer

            Tim Stephens                                         Field Manager

            Jim Coletta                                             Commissioner District 5

            Numerous residents

 

            The following is a summary of the actions taken at the March 15, 2002 meeting.  A copy of the tape recording of the meeting is on file at the District office.

 

FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS             Roll Call

            Mr. Gatti called the meeting to order at 10:00 a.m.  Mr. Mossing called the roll.

            Mr. Gatti stated before we get into any business, we really appreciate the turnout.  I know that a lot of you people, I hope, are interested in what the activities of the CID are, which is great.  You are probably here, also, for information on the litigation matter.

            There is really nothing that is going to be discussed this morning.  We are going to meet at one o'clock with a potential attorney to represent as sort of a class, if that is the right word, action.

            Mr. Cox stated that is something that Mr. Sulese is going to have to consider and if he wants to try to do that with the cost and complications involved in that.  I would think they may want to go another avenue, like representatives from the different parts of the community that he can use as liaisons to stay in contact with all the other people.

            Mr. Gatti stated in that regard, we are going to meet with Andy Sulese, who has indicated interest.  He is an expert in this area of law.  He has indicated an interest in representing us.  His concern - and Dan please correct me if I am off-base here - his concern is dealing with "X" amount of people, whatever that is - two/three hundred - would become totally, from a logistic standpoint, impossible.

            What we had suggested at the big meeting here is that we meet with the presidents of the various associations.  We would like those people to be here at one o'clock today.  That is not to say that if you want to come and listen, there is no problem with that.  However, the focus of the meeting at one o'clock is for him to get a feel what this law suit is all about, and how he is going to handle the logistics of dealing with all of us.

            Mr. Cox stated the only thing I want to make clear is that Mr. Sulese is not committed yet.  This is just as much an informational meeting for him, also.

            Mr. Gatti stated that is why I am not anxious to have 200 people there.  Because it may create a different picture in his mind.  I want him to understand that it will be an organized group and that it will be a manageable group, and that the Board will be involved to some degree.  We have to watch that a little bit, because just like our attorney, we have to watch a potential conflict of interest.

            Sometimes the pure interest of the CID may be a little different than your individual interest.  I do not see how that could happen, because you are the CID.  However, that is how it has been explained to me.

            The meeting having to do with the litigation with the attorney will be at one o'clock today.  We would ask that the representatives that we sort of boiled down that you be president here at one o'clock.  That takes care of the litigation matters.  Now the rest of the morning will be spent on CID matters.

            Now, later on in our program, as we usually do, we have the opportunity for the Board to bring up any matters that they want or for you to bring up any matters that you want.  If you have anything that you want to talk about that is CID-related, other than the law suit - but this is your meeting.  If there is some particular question you really want answered, we will deal with it as best we can.

            I really do not want to open that box just yet, until we get our facts all lined up.  That is the litigation part.  Good news and a little bit of a downside of it.  Commissioner Jim Coletta, who is president of the County Board, has been asking to - or we asked him - to come to our meeting.  He has asked us several times, hey, when can I come down.  We finally saw this as an opportunity.  He was very gracious to come down.

            Let me explain that just a little bit, and certainly Commissioner Coletta can do better than I can.  Commissioner Coletta, in addition to being president of the Board, represents this area on the County Board.  Quite often, you folks ask questions about zoning, about things that are not CID-related.  Signs, roadways, things of that nature.

            We have to tell you that it is really not a CID matter, that is a County matter.  Commissioner Coletta's office has been very, very responsive.  The incidents we have gone there with, we have always gotten a good response.  We are privileged to have him here.  I am going to ask him to say a few words after we conduct our CID business.

            He will also be available after the meeting to sit down with any one of you individually and talk about any particular subject you want to talk about.  Let us conduct our Board meeting real quickly.

 

SECOND ORDER OF BUSINESS         Approval of Minutes of the February 15, 2002 Meeting

            Mr. Wolsky stated I have one change, if I might.  On one of the pages here it mentions that Mr. Coletta wanted to set up a specific association in Mount Pilliar.  That is Immokalee.

 

ON MOTION by Mr. Bissell, seconded by Mr. Wolsky, with all in favor, the minutes of the February 15, 2002 meeting were approved as amended.

 

THIRD ORDER OF BUSINESS            Award of Contract for the Construction of 10" Fire/Irrigation/Reclaimed Water Main and Reclaimed Water System

            Mr. Gatti stated I have looked over these prices.  With the Board's permission, Ron step in here if you would like.

            Mr. Benson stated I am distributing the summary you have in front of you.

            Mr. Gatti stated if you look at the submitted bids, Port of the Islands is low and they have not submitted a bond, which means that they did not respond to the bid.  We asked for the bond in the bid documents?

            Mr. Benson responded yes, we did.

            Mr. Gatti stated that is a non-responsive bid, so they are out regardless.  The other prices are way too high.  I would recommend to the Board that we re-bid this.  I will personally talk to Ron, and get him to get a couple of small contractors to bid this, and we are going to save $50,000/$60,000, because I looked at some of the unit prices and I know we can do better than that.

            This will delay us at least until the next meeting.  What does this do to us in terms of our grant?  The grant is not involved in it.  Yes it is.

            Mr. Benson responded we have a grant from South Florida Water Management District for $75,000 to cover a portion of this project.  The other side of that means they pay up to fifty percent.  The project has to be greater than $150,000.  Our original estimates was that it was between a $150,000 and $200,000 project.  They said they would fund up to $75,000.

            We were given an extension until December 14, 2002 to complete this project.  This is approximately a three-month project.

            Mr. Gatti stated if we wait another month, we are all right.

            Mr. Benson stated yes, we are.

            Mr. Gatti asked what is the Board's feeling on this?

            Mr. Wolsky asked what is required to have this re-bid; do we need a motion?

            Mr. Gatti responded that we not accept these bids and that we turn down all of the bids and re-bid it.

 

ON MOTION by Mr. Wolsky, seconded by Mr. Bissell, with all in favor, the current bids are rejected and Staff is authorized and directed to re-bid the project.

 

FOURTH ORDER OF BUSINESS        Award of Contract for Wetland Monitoring Services

            Mr. Benson stated with the wastewater treatment plant, we have a permit from the State of Florida for disposal of our treated effluent.  Our treated effluent is treated to advanced wastewater treatment standards, and then goes into this wetland area.

            Under the permit, we have to be monitored and submit reports to the State of Florida.  The District Manager's office requested bids, and Darrin can tell you who they sent requests out to.  However, the bottom line is, the request was to do the work required in your permit.  Darrin can maybe tell us specifics about it.  It was advertised and everything.

            Mr. Mossing stated Sanders was the only contractor to respond.

            Mr. Gatti asked how does this compare to last year?

            Mr. Mossing responded it is a savings of approximately $3,000 per year.

            Mr. Gatti asked they did a good job for us?

            Mr. Mossing responded yes.

            Mr. Gatti stated this is the young lady that came in and talked to us several years ago.  She sold the business, though.

            Mr. Wolsky asked if we are going to use the effluent for irrigation water, does that affect this in any way?

            Mr. Benson responded no.  The water quality to go to the wetlands is actually a higher-quality water than for irrigation standards.  However, we need to retain both systems once we go with the reclaimed water for irrigation, because it is our backup.  In case the demand for irrigation water was less than what is being produced.  We do need to retain this, and we need this.

 

ON MOTION by Mr. Bissell, seconded by Mr. Wolsky, with all in favor, Sanders Laboratories is approved as the contractor for wetland monitoring services at a rate of $10,388 for a two-year term.

 

            Mr. Gatti stated before we go into staff reports, maybe Mr. Coletta could talk about the County.

            Mr. Coletta stated I really do appreciate you inviting me here today.  I feel very fortunate that I am the Commissioner for District 5.  It is a very diverse district.  It is 85 percent of the County, the one district, so you can see I am very busy.  I am covering all the way from Everglades City to Immokalee, and all the Estates area.  It keeps me on the road quite a bit.  However, it is an area I have been quite familiar with for quite a few years.

            I moved here in 1984 from Elmira, New York.  My wife is a registered nurse with Hospice.  My four children and my five grandchildren all live here.  I feel very fortunate.  Indeed, you people should feel fortunate.  You not only live in the nicest place in the United States, but you live in the very best place in that County in the United States.  Port of the Islands is, indeed, beautiful.  You are extremely fortunate.

            I just wish my circumstances would come around some day where I could afford to buy a condominium here.  I just would absolutely love it to be able to spend my weekends here now, and then later retire somehow and be full-time.  At this point in time, I need to be more centrally located in my District so I can reach out and not spend any more time driving than necessary.

            Being a County Commissioner is something that I truly enjoy.  I am very much involved in everything that takes place in the District, and that is why I wanted to be here today to be able to see what your problems are, even if they go past what the scope of the County is.

            I am involved in such things as clam farming in Everglades City, helping them get that started.  Starting a post office in Copeland, and removing derelict housing in Immokalee.  I have taken on many different projects.  It is something I truly love doing.  I am driven.  I am more of a community activist than I am a political type of person.

            I draw people together who have similar interests and we get things done.  I have done it all.  I have been the president of about 12 to 13 organizations since I arrived here.  I have done it all from putting together an Indian uprising, to putting down a riot in a Florida sports park.  I have seen it all at one time or another.

            I enjoy what I did before, and I enjoy what I am doing now.  I just want you to know that I got my cards up here and I am truly accessible.  If you need to get hold of me, I prefer E-mail and telephone calls, in that order above everything else.  Past that, faxes and regular letters are fine.  If you can reach me by E-mail or by telephone, I can usually give you a response in a fairly short order of time, and you will also be able to follow the responses, especially by E-mail.

            I built a whole system up in the County where you get to see every time it goes out to a new department and comes to a final conclusion, one way or the other.  That makes you feel more a part of the system.

            As was mentioned, I also am involved in putting together civic associations where they are lacking to try to get the people involved on a grassroots level.  You already have this association.  I think this serves your needs well.

            Any time you want to come out and talk to me about any matters, or you want to talk to me, I am truly available.  My cards are up here.  At the end of the meeting, go ahead and pick one up and we will take it from there.  Thank you very much for your time.

 

FIFTH ORDER OF BUSINESS            Staff Reports

          A.      Attorney

            (There being none, the next agenda item was addressed.)

          B.      Engineer

            Mr. Benson stated I have a couple of items.  One is, there was a letter from Charles Nelson at 162 Sunset Cay requesting some assistance regarding the access to his dock.  There is a drainage swale at the back of all these properties over in the Cays area.  Therefore, in order to access a dock, you have to cross the CID's easement for drainage.

            There is other docks and access to these docks.  I guess at this time Collier County is a little more formal and they need some paperwork signed that he has the CID's permission to cross the easement on his property.

            Mr. Gatti stated yes, we have done this before.

            Mr. Benson stated I think we have done this before.  I looked at it.  It is not impeding our drainage.  As far as those aspects, I see no reason for the CID not to grant his request.

            Mr. Gatti stated I think the Board's familiar with it.  You have the same situation at your house.

            Mr. Wolsky responded right.

            Mr. Gatti stated this is simply building a little bridge across that easement so he can get down to the dock.

            Mr. Benson stated it has already been built, but the County is requiring that he have some type of a use agreement or whatever is required to get the C.O.

            Mr. Gatti stated okay.  With the Board's permission, this is almost a housekeeping matter.  We are not going to deny anybody access to their dock.  Whenever it comes up, with the Board's permission, I think you need somebody's signature on there; do you not?

            Mr. Benson responded well you will need, I guess, Mr. Cox to write some letter of agreement.

            Mr. Cox stated just do a recordable license and use agreement where he can cross our easement.  Make it clear that if we ever need to maintain the swale that we can.

            Mr. Gatti asked can we can something?

            Mr. Cox responded yes

            Mr. Gatti asked why do we not can something?  Develop a form that is applicable to all of this.  We develop it once, and whenever this situation comes up, we sign it and that is it.  Does the Board go along with that rather than bring this up at each Board meeting?

            (Whereupon, the Board indicated their concurrence.)

            Mr. Cox stated go ahead and do a motion to approve it.

 

 

 

ON MOTION by Mr. Wolsky, seconded by Mr. Robinson, with all in favor, Mr. Nelson shall be granted an easement using a recordable license and use agreement.  District Counsel is authorized and directed to create a form for future Board action for this issue.

 

            Mr. Benson stated I have one other item that relates to our reclaimed water system that we just talked about.  In order to keep the cost of that project as low as possible, we have researched getting some used equipment.  Collier County had a reused pump station that was being surplused and we were aware of it and thought we had it all lined up.

            I believe there has been some discussion on this before, but the bottom line is, the County has now decided that they did not want to just give it to Port of the Islands, that they were going to bid it out as surplus equipment and anybody could bid on it.  That is one option for us, to put in a bid.

            Another option, as kind of a coincidence or an opportunity, an organization that I am familiar with in town - a charity - had someone donate some property to them that they could potentially sell as money for this charitable organization.  It happens to be a used golf course irrigation pump station with control panels.

            A golf course basically totally rebuilt their golf course, bought all new equipment.  They have the equipment that would suit our needs.  They are donating it to charity as a charitable contribution.

            This organization called me and said did I know anybody that might need a pump station or any way it could use these pumps.  There is a potential opportunity to negotiate with this charitable organization to buy this used pump station.  I have been told probably $1,000 would do it.

            Mr. Gatti asked do you know the condition of it?

            Mr. Benson responded I have seen it.  It appears to be in good condition.  The new one has already been put in place.  The old one is sitting in their yard.  I went out and looked at it.  It appears that it looks in good condition.  It is about the size that we need.

            Mr. Gatti asked why did they replace it?

            Mr. Benson responded well, you may know about the Palm River Golf Course and County Club up in North Naples, the La Playa Resort there on the beach wanted a golf course and a country club.  They bought this facility.  They have totally rebuilt it.  They just decided they needed something new, because it would be slightly different conditions for this new golf course with more lakes and things of that nature.

            Mr. Gatti asked how does this compare to the one the County had?

            Mr. Benson responded they are similar.

            Mr. Gatti stated I am concerned about buying a used piece of equipment.  If somebody else got rid of it, why did they get rid of it, and are we buying troubles.  Let me back up just a little bit, and Jim, you probably know about this.

            The County staff had it lined up to give this to Port of the Islands.  Everglades City also indicated an interest in getting this piece of equipment.  Therefore, staff was in the position of saying, hey, we have to say yes to somebody and no to somebody else.  To be fair to everybody, they said well, okay, we will bid this thing.  Whoever wants it can come to the County auction and whoever is the bidder gets it.

            Would it be worthwhile looking to see what it is worth?

            Mr. Benson stated I guess the reason I mentioned the other opportunity is, is for instance, if we bid on the one from Collier County and we do not get it, and Everglades City or any private party bids on it - it is not just for any government entities, it is up for open bid - if someone else outbids us, at least maybe there is a fall back position.

            Mr. Gatti asked what should be an outside number that we could, as the Board, authorize in bidding?  If anybody lives in Everglades City, please leave the room.

            Mr. Coletta stated I understand what is happening here, and neither one of you want to spend any more money than you are spending.  I do not know.  It is probably unethical for you to go down there and actually talk to Sammy Hamilton.  However, maybe if no one knew about it.

            You have a fallback position.  Maybe they have something else going.  It is just that I hate to see either one of you spend a lot of money for something.  I would like to see it sell for one dollar to one of you.  Maybe even settle it with a coin toss.  Why bid this thing right out to the top dollar amount, then your community is out all that resources - you or Everglades City.

            I know that their money is extremely tight.  I do not know how they ever make ends meet.  I assure you, your money, you would like to spend it on other things, too.  I think one dollar is a fair price for that pump.

            Mr. Gatti stated that is a good suggestion.

            Mr. Bissell stated I understand that they are not even going to bid on it, from what I hear.  Now, that is just what I have heard.  They were expecting to get it for free.

            Mr. Benson stated well, so were we.

            Mr. Coletta stated there became the problem.

            Mr. Gatti stated in fairness to the County staff, they did the right thing.  I have no problem with that.

            Mr. Benson stated Mr. Cox and I were just talking.  We are not sure we know when the bid date is, because I believe they sent a letter to Mr. Cox in response to our request and indicated when bid, they would let us know.

            Mr. Gatti stated try this on for size.  Asking the Board's approval, can we let Mr. Stephens do this?  I do not think the Board should be involved, particularly myself, because I work for a government agency to begin with.  Can we authorize Mr. Stephens to bid up to $100 on this thing?  Would you guys buy into this?  Does that make sense?

            Mr. Cox responded I do not know.  I do not know what the situation is going to be.  When we get the bid information, we can make a better determination.

            Mr. Gatti stated I am just kind of feeling the Board out.  Does the Board buy into this?  What is the pump worth?

            Mr. Cox stated look at it this way, too.  The other organization that has one has stuck the price on it of $1,000.  I do not know how arbitrary that was.

            Mr. Benson stated it is pretty arbitrary.

            Mr. Cox stated without knowing the condition of the pump or anything, we are looking at a grand.

            Mr. Gatti stated let us not make a big deal out of it.  The point is, let us find out what is going on, then we will take it from there.

            Mr. Benson stated to buy this equipment new is more than $50,000.

            Mr. Wolsky stated then let us not quibble.

            Mr. Benson stated I mean, this is not new equipment - either of these.

            Mr. Gatti stated we have had very good luck with some of the stuff that we have picked up from the County.  The filter, for example.

            Mr. Benson stated actually, that was from Sarasota County, and they had not used it yet.

            Mr. Gatti stated let us find out what the facts are.  I think I have a sense of what the Board is saying.  If we can get a $20,000 piece of equipment for $500, go ahead and do it; is that what I am hearing?

            Mr. Wolsky responded absolutely.

            Mr. Gatti stated or something like that, or some judgment factor.  Okay.

          C.      Manager

            (There being none, the next agenda item was addressed.)

          D.      Field Manager

            Mr. Gatti stated this is Tim Stephens.  He is the operator of our water treatment plant and our sewage treatment plant, and he also takes care of everything else that goes wrong here at the Port that is part of the CID.

            The reason I am introducing him is because you could avoid making an extra call when you call me, if you call Tim directly on a problem.  Tim is very responsive.  He is on-call 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

            If you see something that is wrong - a sprinkler system that is not operating right, we are concerned with water main breaks, or anything like that that is out of the ordinary, Tim is the guy to call.  His number is in our book.

            Mr. Stephens stated I have one item, and that was the pump station which just started up last month.  I still have that line restriction going to the new pump station.  I believe Port of the Islands Construction was going to repair that.  Nothing has been done on that.

            Mr. Gatti asked what is the ramifications of that?  What is happening as a result of that restriction?

            Mr. Stephens responded it is like it is under pressure a lot, because it is so restricted.  It is like you put your finger over the end of a hose pipe and it starts spraying real hard out, instead of just a nice steady flow coming out.

            Mr. Bissell asked this should be done at the expense of Port of the Islands?

            Mr. Gatti responded the developer, absolutely.

            Mr. Stephens stated I asked Jerry McNeil, which was the engineer for Hole, Montes who is in charge of that, to submit something to Port of the Islands Construction.

            Mr. Gatti asked are you familiar with this, Ron?

            Mr. Benson responded yes, I am.  What it is, is the new pump station Port of the Islands Construction built to replace an old one that was a CID pump station.  In doing that work, there is - or since the time of that work, something else in our system nearby is not functioning the way it used to.  The best judgment at this point is that something related to that construction activity potentially damaged an existing pipe.

            There is a couple of ways to fix that.  They have been presented to Port of the Islands Construction and the developer, and as Tim says, nothing has been done yet.  Tim and I have talked about it.  I think the best way to look at it is, it needs to be fixed.

            If, when they fix it, in doing that we find that it was something that has been there before they were involved, I guess it would be our responsibility to reimburse them.  However, from the best we can tell, it was working for many years until they did some work right near there.  They ought to take care of it.

            Mr. Gatti stated I do not know if you can answer this Commissioner.  The way we handle it in the City, when we have a problem like this with a developer, is he does not get an occupancy permit until he satisfies the requirements of the infrastructure - whatever he is involved in.

            Mr. Coletta stated I have to check into that.  I know where it comes to a road emptying into another road - in other words, if they did not build the roads that were necessary within the community that hook up to 41 - I know in that particular case, Falling Waters, we just cut off their permits until they resolved the situation with Florida DOT.

            Very possibly, that might be true.  I would more than happy to check it out for you.  However, I cannot tell you.  Sometimes there are private agreements - your attorney could explain it - that exists between the tenants and the developer that we do not have any jurisdiction over.

            Mr. Gatti stated what I would like to do is ask Ron Benson to call County staff and ask them to withhold the occupancy permit at our direction until this thing is resolved.

            Mr. Coletta asked can I help you with this a little bit?

            Mr. Gatti responded yes, sir.

            Mr. Coletta stated do not call them, E-mail them.  You need a permanent record at all times that is going to grow as things go along, and that there is no doubt who said what and what happened.  CC a copy to me personally.

            Mr. Gatti asked does the Board subscribe to what I am saying?

            Mr. Wolsky responded absolutely.

            Mr. Bissell responded yes.

            Mr. Wolsky stated we will stop you if we do not agree.

            Mr. Gatti stated I do not want to be real punitive, but on the other hand, we have to get this guy's attention.  Richard is not here.  If this is going to cause problems for us down the line, we better take care of it now before this all disappears.

            Mr. Bissell asked Tim will be aware when they repair this?

            Mr. Benson responded oh, yes.

            Mr. Gatti asked you are going to call the County staff?

            Mr. Benson responded right.

            Mr. Gatti stated oh, you are going to E-mail the County staff.

            Mr. Benson responded yes.  We will take care of it.  As I said, just in fairness, I think, if at the time they open up this hole and it is something they did not cause, we would then take care of the problem.  However, I am gathering from everything I have heard, it is from damage that they caused.

            Mr. Gatti stated we understand.  No problem.  The Board is okay with that?

            (Whereupon, the Board indicated their concurrence.)

            Mr. Gatti stated mosquito spraying also comes under Tim's jurisdiction, prerogative, whatever.  In addition to having licenses for the water treatment plants - special licenses which he has to have - special licenses to operate the sewage treatment plant, which he has to have, he also has to have a special license to disperse this kind of material that we do for mosquito spraying.  Tim has a lot of background.  We are very fortunate to have him.

 

SIXTH ORDER OF BUSINESS            Supervisors Requests and Audience Comments

            Mr. Wolsky stated a week ago, I stood in front of a group that had gotten together to discuss the litigation and said that I would like everybody's E-mail addresses who wants to be kept apprised of what is going on.  I had something like forty when I asked the question.  Now I have 105 E-mail addresses.  It is a wonderful system.

            It is amazing what you can accomplish with E-mail.  I really, really encourage - and I really support - Commissioner Coletta, because you have a record - almost - that never goes away.  You can destroy it and it is still there.  People can dig into the files and get it all out.

            Be circumspect in what you say, and I will be circumspect in what I answer to you.  It is a wonderful method of communicating.  This is the largest turnout we have had for a CID meeting, incidently.  It is probably because of the E-mail input here.  Therefore, encourage all your friends to send their E-mail addresses.  If you do not have E-mail, it is high time that you bought a computer and entered the 21st century.  Ask your kids how it works.  That is all I have.

            Mr. Gatti stated without a regular newsletter, and I understand putting a newsletter together is not the easiest thing, particularly when it is all volunteers - without having that regularly coming in front of us, this makes a great way to transmit information to everybody on a timely basis.  Any others?

            Again, thank you very much for making the hotel available to us at that last meeting.  I know it totally disrupted your operation, but we really appreciate it.  Any audience comments?

            Ms. Cain stated we have been here about four years.  Each year at these meetings it has been discussed about fire protection and ambulance service.  Nothing has happened.  Maybe it is not feasible to have that right now, but at least I think we should have what we call first responders.

            I am qualified.  I am a nurse.  I spent 23 years on an ambulance service.  I am a CPR instructor.  I would be glad to offer my services in organizing a group of first responders, and even teaching them if necessary.

            Mr. Gatti stated just a little bit of background.  I think there is some activity at the County at this level, but I am not really sure where it is at.  Going back about two or three years, a group of us got certified as volunteer firemen.  We went through the classes, got certified, went through a burning house - scared the hell out of us.  I thought Bob Genung and I were going to spend the rest of our days in the little town over here.

            Be that as it may, we started this activity