-MINUTES
OF MEETING
CORAL
SPRINGS
IMPROVEMENT
DISTRICT
The regular meeting of the
Board of Supervisors of the Coral Springs Improvement District was held on
Present and constituting a quorum
were:
Bob Fennell President
Glen Hanks Secretary
Also present were:
Doug Hyche District Staff
Jean Rugg
Janice Moen Larned
Randy Frederick
Dennis Lyles Attorney
John McKune Engineer
Mr.
Fennell called the meeting to order and Mr. Petty called the roll.
SECOND ORDER OF BUSINESS Approval of the Minutes of
the February 27, 2006 Meeting
Mr. Fennell stated each Board member
received a copy of the
Mr. Fennell stated on page 17, in
the second paragraph, the sentence “frankly I would not want to put my hands
into someone else’s” should be “frankly I would not want to put my fate into
someone else’s hands”.
On MOTION by Mr. Fennell seconded by Mr.
Hanks with all in favor the minutes of the
THIRD
ORDER OF BUSINESS Hurricane
Debris Removal and Canal Bank Restoration Status
Mr. Petty stated Mr. McKune is
handling the contract administration. We
brought some pictures to show you the construction in progress. We are recording the progression of this work
for posterity in case there is an audit by the federal government. The equipment they are using is unique. When they first put their equipment in the
water, it seemed to take them a considerable amount of time to clear a canal
but their speed increased exponentially as they got into a rhythm and now they
are proceeding rather quickly. Mr.
McKune brought a map where the blue lines signify the status of canals they
have already been in where the majority of debris has been removed. On every canal, there is always something
that still has to be addressed, whether it be the
removal of trees, a couple of stumps or some sod work.
Mr. Fennell asked does the blue line
indicate what has been done?
Mr. Petty responded that is where he
has the barge for cleanup on the canals.
The majority of trees have been removed from the waterway. He may still have some stump and sod work
left to do.
Mr. McKune stated green represents
the entire District divided into sections for which we received additional
estimates.
Mr. Fennell stated I saw them
working on the University side today. I
do not know how they work on the barge when it is whipping back and forth
across the canal.
Mr. Petty stated it creates waves
200 feet downstream.
Mr. Fennell stated I wonder how it
stays afloat.
Mr. McKune stated you should see how
they move down the canal.
Mr. Petty stated they go in a
straight line. I would be bouncing off
the banks.
Mr. Fennell stated there is no way
any pipes will survive when the barge goes through.
Mr. Petty stated when the trees came
down a lot of the pipes got pulled out.
They will not be able to be repaired until we get the debris out of the
way. We are putting out door hangers
advising the residents. If we created
the damage, we repaired it because they were not given notice but everyone will
be given notice. The contractor is using
a mid-size backhoe with a sheer lobster claw attachment to cut trees 24 inches
in diameter and pick them up rather quickly.
There have been observations by staff of some inconsistencies in the
contract. He needs to provide fill
material in one or two places. I think
Mr. McKune spoke to him about the sod work and getting it in within a
reasonable timeframe. He was using some
mulch material, which at first we had some concerns that he was going to try to
backfill with his own mulch from his facility.
It turns out he was using the mulch for a seed bed. We did not call for it in our contract, but
he has free mulch so he is throwing it down.
Mr. McKune stated he already has sod
down along the south bank behind the club.
Mr. Hanks asked what are your
thoughts on the dry cycle? Are the plants drought resistant?
Mr. McKune responded he is going to
continue watering them. He has a small
pump and a small boat and speeds up and down the canal. It will not be a problem.
Mr. Fennell stated I was concerned
about the individual homeowners and how perhaps they had not been maintaining
their property, but what I really saw was commercial interest who may be more
at fault than the homeowners. The
homeowners behind Sam’s Club decided they were not going to bother with those
trees back there and that is a good thing because this was a nice screen for
them and they really did not want it removed.
Mr. Petty stated I think there are
two categories one is like Sam’s Club where they put up a wall and whatever is
on the other side they never touch again.
Then there is the canal behind the party center and Burger King on
University heading north. They have a
wall behind their unit where there are buffer trees that were probably required
by the city. These are 15 to 20 year old
trees. They mow this area and trim the
trees. So you have places like Sam’s
Club where the homeowners in back do not maintain up to their wall and then
there are owners who put up a buffer, probably required by the city and
maintain it through their landscaper. A
third area is behind the Coral Springs Auto Mall, which is jungle. There are no buffer trees. We are going to talk about what our policy is
going to be about trees later on in the agenda and it probably would be best to
talk about this matter at that time.
Mr. Fennell stated there is more
than one case. We are still spending a
lot of CSID’s money on maintenance issues. They did not do the job they should have.
Mr. Frederick stated unfortunately
in a lot of these areas the trees were there before construction and before
there was a city policy. These trees
were supposed to be removed before any building was done on that particular
piece of property.
Mr. Petty stated if it is not on
their property, there is no way you can force them to take it down. It could have been behind Sam’s Club if the
property line is where the wall is and the rest is ours. The city could not force them to come onto
our property and cut the trees when they bought their parcel. We can go more into this matter later.
Mr. Hanks asked are we having any
water quality changes in the canal we should be worried about?
Mr. Petty responded I would not say
water quality other than turbidity. We
have turbidity screening required in the contract and he is maintaining it but
we are stirring things up.
Mr. Frederick stated it clears up
pretty fast. I have seen this in many
places where there is a lot of turbidity and it takes a while to clear up. There are many floating little sticks and
branches, which we will have to fish out.
Mr. Hanks asked how can you tell
whether or not the contractor is on schedule?
Mr. McKune responded the contractor
has 120 days to complete the contract.
They are moving fairly quickly.
The largest area has been completed.
Mr. Fennell stated I thought the
contractor had 100 days to complete.
Mr. Petty stated we gave them 100
days but not much was damaged or had trees falling on them. This is the area
that had bank erosion or fallen trees.
Mr. Fennell stated I am happy they are
making progress but I do not know how to judge it. I do not know if this is going to be enough
time.
Mr. Petty stated we think they are
within their schedule and are optimistic they will be ahead of schedule based
on our observations.
Mr. Fennell asked do they have a schedule?
Mr. Petty responded yes, to complete
the job in 150 days.
Mr. Fennell asked do they have
something broken down into timeframes?
Mr. Petty responded no, it is rhythm
oriented. If we break this rhythm we
cause time delays. If we aid their
rhythm, which is what we started to do, they move more quickly.
Mr. McKune stated he has 10 days to
give us a formal schedule.
Mr. Fennell asked is there a formal
schedule?
Mr. McKune responded it is
required. Right now he is trying to feel
his way around. He has other crews he
could bring in.
Mr. Fennell asked when you receive a
formal schedule, would you give each Board member one?
Mr. Frederick responded sure.
Mr. Fennell stated by the way, the
city did sort of hint if we really needed to use their area, they would be
cooperative.
Mr. Petty asked are you referring to
the regional park?
Mr. Fennell responded the area they
do their mulching.
Mr. Petty stated it was nice of them
to offer. We are not going to be
mulching but it is nice to know it is there.
Mr. Fennell stated I was watching
them size up the trees.
Mr. Frederick stated he cuts them
the length of the barge. If a tree is
too large, he cannot get through the canal.
FOURTH
ORDER OF BUSINESS Report
from Mr. Fennell on District Accounting Procedures
Ms. Larned stated the field work is
completed and in talking with Mr. Eissler, there are
two items he is still waiting on but he is working on the comparisons. There should be a draft report coming in the
next couple of weeks.
Mr. Fennell asked are there any
issues as far as the amount of effort to get this done? Are we able to comply?
Mr. Petty responded there are no
road blocks at all.
Ms. Larned stated there is more of a
contention on their part with all of the other tax work going on.
Mr. Fennell asked do we have someone
helping out from Severn Trent?
Mr. Petty responded yes. We are trying to keep this going as long as
it is helpful.
Mr. Fennell asked are we paying for that?
Mr. Petty responded we are doing it
under the existing contract at no additional charge.
FIFTH ORDER OF
BUSINESS Discussion
Items
A. Two-Way Radios to Facilitate
Communication
Mr. Hyche stated we are out for
bids. We will receive the bids on the 23rd.
Mr. Fennell asked did we receive any
good responses?
Mr. Hyche responded we had a
mandatory pre-bid meeting and four responded.
Mr. Hanks asked for the radios?
Mr. Hyche responded yes.
Mr. Petty stated we have satellite
phones on order or will be on order next Thursday.
Mr. Fennell stated you mentioned we
were having problems with the phone connections in here. Mr. Eissler tried
to call in and had a hard time getting through.
On the other hand you are saying we have 100 phone lines but some of
them need to be repaired. Do we have
BellSouth?
Mr. Petty responded yes.
Mr. Fennell stated you can have them
come in and do an analysis of our lines.
Mr. Petty stated we already had them
do an analysis. Mr. Dan Daly has been
working with Bellsouth and we actually have a plan in place that we will
provide to the Board later on when we do the budgets. At that time, we bring the system back from
the other building to here and make this system independent. Some of our staff floats from here to another
office and the computer actually running our phone system sits in another
building. We are trying to bring that
system back. Severn Trent has been taking
their employees off and Ms. Jean Rugg’s group, who
were part of the move, adopted a new phone system Severn Trent has in that
building and we can now take this system and bring it back. Mr. Daly has been working with Bellsouth on
what would be necessary to improve our telephone system and upgrade the
hardware in order to bring the computer system back. We would be glad to bring this to the Board
at the next meeting.
Mr. Fennell asked can you
communicate with the lift stations and pump stations?
Mr. Petty responded we are still
working on that. We love the concept but
the practicality is I have not seen a working system of any value to me
yet. But, aside from that, SKADA makes
sense. I would like the operator to look
at the meter for leaks and signs of damage or loss. The same thing goes when you turn on some of
these pieces of equipment. I want you to
feel the vibrations, hear the noise and see how a bearing gets hot. We have SKADA throughout our utility system
and well fields.
Mr. Fennell asked what is SKADA?
Mr. Petty responded data acquisition
and control. We have some on/off
functionality and basic commands but do not have any routines built into our
system. We have gone through two or
three attempts at trying to do computerized control (i.e. we do not need
operators, just one guy to program it and it will run). It has not worked so far and my personal
opinion is not very high of that system.
I have not seen one run a utility but certainly you can use it turn
equipment on and off.
Mr. Fennell stated you can run a
phone line or use RF. I do not know
whether the phone system is any cheaper.
In some ways the RF systems are expensive to install; at least $2,000 to
$5,000.
Mr. Petty stated we have both types
of systems. Using the old method, we
were able to keep the system functional better than anyone else. I like the idea of having as much as I can
out there but after awhile the value of the dollar spent does not give you the
same return.
Mr. Fennell stated if you are going
to look at phone systems, this might be a good time to see if there are any
other phone systems out there for the money.
Mr. Petty stated Mr. Hyche addressed
this item at the last meeting, however Mr. McKune and I wanted to hold off
because this is the first time we have heard of it. Mr. Hyche was saying “I do not need radios or
telephones, just give me a skid mounted generator I can keep in the warehouse
and when the power goes out, I am going to put it in the lift station and it is
going to run off the floats”.
Mr. Fennell stated this might just
be the thing to do.
B. Portable
Generators
Mr. Fennell asked did you go out for
bids?
Mr. Hyche responded I was given the
approval to go out for bids today.
Mr. Fennell asked are we going to
get eight or ten generators?
Mr. Hyche responded ten 20 KW skid
mounted generators.
Mr. Hanks asked is this sufficient
to operate the pumps?
Mr. Hyche responded yes.
Mr. Hanks asked how big are they?
Mr. Hyche responded you can haul
three of them in a pick-up truck.
Mr. Petty stated we have one of
those hydraulic lift mechanisms for our pumps.
Mr. Hanks asked what size pumps do
you currently have?
Mr. Hyche responded 40 horsepower,
some are 10 horsepower.
Mr. Hanks asked do you prefer
kilowatt or horsepower?
Mr. Petty stated if you try to start
both of them at the same time you can trip a line. You have to do them one at a time. What this means for us is when we first
install them, there may be a period in the first day where there is going to
have to be someone standing next to these pumps in order to keep the second
pump off until we drop the level down.
Mr. Hyche stated we also have three
portables that we will be shuffling around.
Mr. Petty stated they made the
system work with one pump last time.
This time they have three generators plus 10 fixed stations. This will give us the ability to sit back
here to work on this utility site versus running around out in the field.
Mr. Fennell stated last year at this
time, we ordered two additional pumps.
However when we needed them, they were in Pompano getting painted and we
could not get a hold of them.
Mr. Petty stated they look
great. They are painted just like the
trucks.
Mr. Hanks asked is
our manpower sufficient to handle the trees, truck trailer, generators and
these skids?
Mr. Hyche responded yes. I talked this over with the staff and this is
the way they would like to go. They
could handle it more efficiently with those 10 generators and those three
portable ones than with one portable.
Mr. Fennell asked what is not to
prevent my neighbor who also has a pick-up truck from steeling a generator?
Mr. Hyche responded we have to buy
some chains. The city had some
generators missing, but they were not chained and locked down. We will also have a 24 hour watch on them.
Mr. Fennell asked what are you going
to chain them to?
Mr. Hyche responded the lift
station.
Mr. Petty stated we can chain it to
something heavy enough they cannot haul off.
Mr. Hanks stated I was making a
presentation the other day when one of our student commissioners mentioned the
city had a retainer agreement with a rental company for generators.
Mr. Petty stated you are relying on
them to be there after the hurricane. We
could not find anyone to get our generators.
This is a good idea to have as a back-up
Mr. Hyche stated only if they match
our connections and have the right power.
Mr. Petty stated you never can do
better than having the generators on-site.
Mr. Hanks stated I am just trying to
think of different ways to use the $100,000 we are spending on the
generators. Hopefully we will never need
to use them.
Mr. Fennell stated I think you
will. We have occasional power outages
throughout the area. How many lift
stations do we have?
Mr. Hyche responded 22.
Mr. Petty stated we are a force main
system.
Mr. Hanks asked is
there a way to do a joint purchase with another utility?
Mr. Petty responded we belong to
several different groups where basically you will respond with back loads,
front end loaders and generators during an emergency. I said to Mr. Hyche, “if we get these 10
generators and they have a problem up in
Mr. Hanks asked does it not make
sense to stagger the purchase of them so we are not purchasing them all at the
same time or buy them in quantities?
Mr. Hyche responded it would if we
bid them that way.
Mr. Petty stated we are going to bid
them and get a price to you for your consideration. I wanted to get you a real number, not just a
merchandise catalog number.
Mr. Fennell stated I think the
electricity being out caused more economic problems than anything else as far
as lost wages. We could not pump gas or
do anything. No one evacuated, which I
frankly think you cannot evacuate
Mr. Hyche responded we can tie it
into the new system.
Mr. Fennell stated it is a good
suggestion. I know there are companies
who specialize in this who can provide generators by a certain time and
day. Are we in trouble after 12 hours?
Mr. Petty responded with lift
stations you can be in trouble in as short as four hours. If we have a rain event of five inches or
more, it can be within an hour because we have an infiltration issue. If the water table and the pressure increase
our lift stations could go bad real fast.
The residents here in
Mr. Hanks asked do we have anyone
maintaining a response unit in the state?
Mr. Fennell responded each state out
west has something like that. I think we
signed some type of agreement to cooperate with other areas. You need to have a preplanned policy for what
generator we would need, who would go and exactly what kind of response we
would have so we know exactly what we do in this situation. Let’s go forward with that, because I believe
we need to cooperate. You are right; we
need to think about what we need ourselves, especially in the middle of the
hurricane season.
SIXTH
ORDER OF BUSINESS Consideration
of Work Authorization No. WA-29 for the
Non-Hurricane Water Management System Vegetation Removal
Mr. Petty stated this is for the
engineer to evaluate the scope of our proposed tree management program as
preventive maintenance for a hurricane.
Mr. Fennell asked have we actually
asked him to do the work and this is the work authorization?
Mr. Petty responded yes.
Mr. McKune stated this is the same
proposal we gave you before in the preparation of plans.
Mr. Petty stated this is a not to
exceed number.
Mr. Hanks asked what specialized
sub-consultants are needed?
Mr. McKune responded none. The work is all done in-house.
On MOTION by
Mr. Hanks seconded by Mr. Fennell with all in favor Work Authorization No. WA-29 for
Non-Hurricane Water Management System Vegetation Removal in an amount not to
exceed $25,000 was approved.
Mr. Lyles stated Mr. Petty commented
that this was a not to exceed number but the document does not specify. Is the $25,000 a not to exceed number?
Mr. McKune responded this is what we
anticipate.
Mr. Petty stated he would have to
come back to the Board to request additional money if he exceeded $25,000. He cannot do work and then come to us with a
bill.
Mr. Hanks stated without additional
authorization.
Mr. Petty stated Mr. McKune has a
preliminary number from the contractor.
I think he received a number between $1.3 and $1.4 Million based on the
number of trees standing.
Mr. Fennell asked did you go out and
look at the work yourself?
Mr. McKune responded those are the
areas we looked at and those are the prices per area.
Mr. Petty stated there are a couple
of different programs. Mr. Frederick is
going to show you one. I am showing you
the other. This is a minimal step in
addressing trees in the future. We are
only going after damaged trees and trees in the way of our equipment. Ornamental trees may or may or not pose any
real threat to our existing banks.
Coconut Palm, for example may not be a real direct threat. As you start thinking of other ornamental
trees maybe that changes. Under this policy you would look at where
people have put hedges in the reservoirs, small ornamental plants, which are
going to grow into big ornamental plants later on and then of course, what we
have already talked about, which is a required buffer. Where do you draw the line and what trees do
you take out during this contract? The
$1.3 to $1.4 million is for clearing everything from right-of-way to
right-of-way and edge to edge and making a green space, which is the same
concept but without ornamentals.
Mr. Frederick stated they are not
exactly cleared out but for the most part they are. We are not saying that if we did clear all
the trees out that people could not put a picnic table back there. We just did not want anything growing.
Mr. Petty stated we have two
different viewpoints, one from Mr. Frederick perspective, which I respect, for
green space. What type
of storm event are we designed to handle assuming the canals are
working? Is it a five year, ten year or
twenty-five year storm event?
Mr. McKune responded 100 year storm
event. The water can remain in the bank
as long as it is flowing.
Mr. Hanks stated during the 100 year
storm, the water is up to your door.
Mr. McKune stated you will be in
good shape unless you have some blockage then the water will rise. It will rise even quicker if the grate in the
street is blocked.
Mr. Petty stated the city has
actually learned how to clean those in the last couple of years.
Mr. Fennell stated as I remember
your explanation from before on us relying upon knowing the pump but we are
also relying upon a certain amount of absorption. By the way, it was not over a short period of
time, because I remember it was a two or three day period.
Mr. Petty stated we have had actual
conditions exceeding that.
Mr. Hyche stated in nine hours we
had 14 inches of rain.
Mr. Fennell stated I remember going
to work in the morning and having to take the C-14 canal to go home because
that was the only way to get back to my house.
Mr. Hyche stated this was because
the water in the C-14 was up to the top of the banks.
Mr. Fennell stated it was and I
still contend my street was at direct connection to C-14 so water was coming
into our street from the drain.
Mr. Hanks asked what are the elevations? Are they
in the hundreds?
Mr. Hyche responded about 16.5 or around
there.
Mr. Fennell asked can you look at my
street;
Mr. Hanks asked what is the width of
the outfall canal?
Mr. Frederick responded the width of
the canal on the outfall to the pump station is 60 to 80 feet. At
Mr. Petty stated if you recall, we
talked to you about the emergency plan in the NRCS program. Our concern was to free up every culvert
area. They look at your crossings, pipe
elevations, the size of your pipes and how much water you are actually
moving. The size of the canal is not the
body of water you are moving.
Mr. Fennell asked which one will
ensure in 15” rain where we have trees falling that I will not get flooded?
Mr. McKune responded keeping debris
out of the canal is the best way.
Mr. Fennell asked is there anything
less than that?
Mr. McKune responded it is a matter
of probability. If you had a tree in the
right-of-way and it were to fall to where you would only have the top 10 feet
leaning over, the likelihood of that causing problems is minimal. However, if you have a tree standing 100 feet
tall 15 feet from the top of the bank, that could cause a problem. I recommend clearing from right-of-way to
right-of-way.
Mr. Hanks asked what is Arbor Tree’s recommendation regarding wind events?
Mr. McKune responded Arbor Tree has
criteria for trees. The issue then
becomes if you have a healthy tree that will not blow over here and have some
growing over there, I cannot get there.
Mr. Frederick stated I received a
complaint from a resident who has two ficus trees
over 100 years old.
Mr. Hanks asked how can they be over
100 years old when this area was not developed at that time?
Mr. Fennell responded because until
recently I had two
Mr. Frederick stated we do not want
to cut down the
Mr. Fennell stated we had an issue
with
Mr. Hanks stated the water would
still flow through. On these canals are
you talking about a 16 foot culvert under the street?
Mr. Frederick responded water will,
but debris getting blown into these canals at the same time and clogging up on
these trees will not flow.
Mr. Petty stated the truth is we
have not had such an event to say one way or the other what is going to
happen. We can speculate. There is no insurance that if you do the
green way space you will not have any trees in your canal. The trees are going to cause blockage. There are going to be trees over 20 feet
high. Those are the ones we are worried
about and our easements in a lot of areas are five feet. A homeowner could have a 60 foot Upper Pine,
a 35 foot Bay tree and a 70 foot Australian Pine in
their yard.
Mr. Hanks stated one picture shows
an Australian Pine going bank to bank. Yes you are going to have some debris hanging
up on it, but you still could maintain what looks a fair amount of clear water
to provide drainage for it.
Mr. Petty stated it would depend on
how quickly you tried to move that water.
We probably could have handled a five inch rain event because it would
have been slow moving. If we turn on all of our pumps, we could keep up with
it. I do not think we are going to have
any guarantees on any options you pick.
Keep in mind that a lot of these homes in
Mr. Fennell stated I think this is
the only time we will have time to do this.
If we do a partial job, the big trees will grow again and in five or ten
years the problem will return. We need
to do the right thing and any consequences but you will never have a better
time to do the right thing.
Mr. Hanks stated we can impose
criteria on the types of trees allowed.
Mr. Fennell asked what kind of
criteria?
Mr. Hanks responded to restrict ficus and Australian Pine trees.
Mr. Fennell asked what about height?
Mr. Hanks responded the only way you
can deal with the height is by changing the species.
Mr. Petty stated another smaller
District in the area has adopted such rules, which Mr. Lyles and I familiar
with. In
Mr. Fennell asked are those trees
legally supposed to be there?
Mr. Petty responded I do not think
they are illegal. I think we have the
right to clear our rights-of-way to provide our function, which is great but I
do not know that I could call the trees illegal.
Mr. Fennell asked what will maintain
drainage in the event of a hurricane?
Mr. Petty responded I could tell you
with a certain level of confidence, I could maintain drainage with Option B, which
is permitted ornamental trees. If a
Coconut Palm pulls out of my canal I am not concerned. A lot of debris can fall in these canals
during hurricane events. Screen
enclosures with fiber glass material are far more deadly than any tree that
would fall in. I see those in every backyard. The material from plastic that gets blown in
is far more capable of causing a blockage.
The silt coming from the bank where it is not being kept from erosion
control because all I have in some cases is sod that is growing poorly. The trees have been providing, to some
degree, beneficial use by keeping the soil together with the root system. It is a form of erosion control. I do not want any trees on my slopes. The issue there is if the root wall gets
inundated with water, it is going to be a stunted root fall which is capable of
causing me bank erosion. I do not want
anything on the slope. On top of bank
you have the ability to provide some degree of latitude as long as the residents
do not expect us to spend another $3.5M cleaning it up next time.
Mr. Hanks stated I think for the
remaining residents of the District we should make a commitment to maintain
their right-of-way if they agree to maintain their trees if not removed by us.
Mr. Fennell stated we are outlining
a brief policy here but in the end this has to be proven that it will not
endanger us.
Mr. Lyles stated you are stating a
fact. If we are going to adopt a policy
it might also be a good idea to have a rulemaking procedure to the water
control plan. We are going to have to
show that the existence of some trees is somehow creating a negative impact on
the drainage, not just with the right circumstances. They have to prove the
trees do no harm. We have to prove they
are harmful or potentially do harm. We
are talking about regulating property.
For canals we own by fee simple, we are going to have to retrace the
ownership patterns for these canals.
Where we actually own property as opposed to just maintaining the
easement of the flowage of drainage, we have greater rights. We can say “sorry but this is our property
and we determined as a District that we do not want to allow trees to be
planted here because of what happened after Wilma“. It is all going to take a process.
Mr. Hanks stated we are trying to
improve on the current level of flood protection.
Mr. Fennell asked what do we need to
do to ensure the drainage flows properly?
Mr. McKune stated if you get debris
in the canal, you will have a problem.
How much depends on what size debris and how rapidly the water is moving
down the canal. It takes the smaller
debris mounded up in front of the culvert therefore, leaving tremendous
headwall. The engineering is to keep
trespassing from the canal.
Mr. Petty stated I think the
suggestion to you is not to try and go from a policy where we did not touch
trees and we are lousy with the things now.
As a matter of fact, I think one of the city’s slogans is “we are the
city of trees.” I can tell you after
going out in the field these last couple months, we have a whole lot of
trees. I am trying to talk you into
going to the next step. I am not looking
for a rule adoption at this time; I am looking for an administrative policy.
Mr. Fennell stated we are going to
spend $1.5 million but we need to determine on what and for what purpose.
Mr. Petty stated I am not asking for
$1.5 million. I am looking to see if the
Board can consider an administrative policy wherein staff adjusts the contract
out now to start removing trees considered to be hazardous which would consist
of all non-ornamental within the right-of-way.
Mr. Fennell stated I am not sure
this is good enough. I hear one argument
saying basically these were designed so there would be no trees in the
lake. If you are going to put trees in
the right-of-way what effect will this have?
Mr. McKune responded I did not say
there should not be trees in the right-of-way.
I said it was designed to have no trees blocking flow. If there were enough trees to flow into the
canal then we have a problem.
Mr. Fennell stated in that case you
probably have trees that fell into the canal, which we cannot control.
Mr. Hanks asked do we know what
level of dead loss we can tolerate?
Mr. McKune responded no.
Mr. Fennell stated there must be a
rational on how much you can tolerate.
We are going to have different kinds of trees fall in, maybe not as
much, but we are going to have something.
Mr. McKune stated the amount you can
tolerate is the crown of the road.
Mr. Fennell asked could we have
staff do a study?
There was a waterway study done by the county.
Mr. McKune responded if you start
blocking canals you will not flood the entire District at once. It will flood everything behind it in that
neighborhood.
Mr. Hanks stated if you are talking
catastrophic flooding, it is in the order of magnitude of 15 inches of
rainfall. The idea is you will be
flooded wall to wall. If you block a
canal, there are alternate paths as long as we are not isolated by roadway
debris.
Mr. Petty stated I think you raise a
good point. As you watch the water
levels rise and the roadways flood, you now have channels to move the water
around any trees that are down in your canal.
If you are outside the canal area and are dealing with flat ground, the
amount of trees is no longer an issue.
It is possible we would be able to have flooding in a house with our
pumps on because it would still be coming to us over land. Therefore, we cannot determine the number of
trees that can be taken down.
Mr. McKune stated do
not count on sheet flow.
Mr. Petty stated I have a singular
restriction and a headwall. We reached
the elevation where the water table went up to 12 feet. I have enough ground area around this
headwall, which has been plowed by a tree.
I should be able to overcome that clog.
However, if every headwall is clogged on every path, it is a different
story, but I do not think it is going to happen this way. I do not think the system is designed where
this can happen.
Mr. McKune stated it is not designed
to have a flow around sheet flow. There
is no way it can get blocked so far in there.
Mr. Petty stated no, because you
stop at the top of the bank. Mr. Hanks
is referring to a storm event going beyond top of bank.
Mr. Fennell asked for there to be
flooding, how many trees will be down?
The premise is we clean from right-of-way to right-of-way. This would be the best we can do and what it
was designed to do under the criteria.
Mr. Petty stated the design criteria
would not be true unless the design criteria considered trees. Many trees did not fall down during the last
hurricane.
Mr. Fennell stated there is a piece
of logic that is not quite right.
Mr. Petty stated if we say no trees
on top of bank between here and the water level, this is a compromised position
and gets you what you want. If we have a
five foot easement, you cannot control a tree coming out of the water. You cannot guarantee my safety during such an
event under any circumstances.
Mr. Fennell stated there is a degree
of safety.
Mr. Petty stated the tree can grow
within five feet on my property. What am
I guaranteeing you?
Mr. Fennell responded that it will
not block the flow of water.
Mr. Petty asked how do you know? It is on my
property and you cannot control it. A 70
foot Australian Pine is on my property.
Mr. Fennell stated I think we should
cite you unless you cut the tree down.
Mr. Petty stated we do not have that
ability.
Mr. Fennell stated we will go to the
city and have them cite you. We will not
have trees that are taller than the width of the canal.
Mr. McKune stated that was the idea.
Mr. Fennell asked what do we have to
do to insure the water flows and will not be impeded?
Mr. Petty responded I can bring in a
specialist who can tell you that the root will hold the tree, even it is an
Australian Pine because there is no supportable data stating an Australian Pine
falls sooner than any other tree. What
happens is the Australian Pine is closer to the water
and the root is saturated and therefore, falls more easily. However if the tree is on dry land and not at
the water line, it will hold just as well as any other tree.
Mr. Fennell asked are you saying an
Australian Pine will not fall?
Mr. Petty responded I am saying it
will hold as well as any other tree. The
question is whether the house will fall or the flagpole will fall.
Mr. Fennell asked will it fall into
the canal? If
it falls into the canal it will impede the flow of water.
Mr. Hanks stated it does not make a
difference if you get flooded by watering coming through the roof or under the
door.
Mr. Fennell stated financially it
makes a huge difference. I think we are
talking about what will impede the flow of water if a tree falls into the
water. If nothing falls into the water,
we are okay. If something falls into the
water, then we are discussing the degree.
Mr. Hanks asked have you seen a tree
down in the water?
Mr. Fennell responded yes, I
have. I have seen how much the tree
causes a problem. I saw this happen on
the
Mr. McKune responded we can predict
what will occur but not to the degree of a bunch of trees.
Mr. Fennell stated statistically you
can figure out if you have 100 trees fall into this canal what will happen.
Mr. McKune stated if you take the
example of one tree that falls across the bank it would not be a big deal but
if the same tree fell bank to bank and snapped in two places across the canal
and the center piece fell into the water and flowed into a culvert, it could
flood the culvert.
Mr. Fennell asked are we designing
for the worst case or in such a way we hope it will not happen? Most of the time this is
not going to happen.
Mr. Petty responded if material
going into a canal is a major concern, you may want to consider an alternative
construction method other than an open canal.
You may want a culvert pipe. If
your concern is material going into a canal putting residents at risk, five or
six trees can cause a major problem to our drainage system during a hurricane
as well as two or three screen enclosures or vehicles running off the road
during a major rain event when they lose visibility.
Mr. Fennell asked can culverts be blocked?
Mr. Hanks responded it is not an
option because culverts provide surface storage and you are going to end up
violating the maximum discharge criteria or stormwater
permits.
Mr. Petty stated it is highly costly
to budget.
Mr. Fennell asked is there something
else we can do like dropping a drain into the canal? Is there is a way to prevent the water from
being blocked?
Mr. Hanks responded we can get a
report from CH2M-Hill on whether the CSID canals provide flood protection in
the event of a hurricane.
Mr. McKune stated if we do not pump
the canals, we cannot protect property.
Mr. Fennell stated there was such a
report prepared several years ago on what the system can do, how much water
comes in and out, etc. I do not think
any criteria were taken into account on what happens when you block the
canals. We are at a point where we need
to establish some criteria. The engineer
is telling us if we block these canals, they will flood.
Mr. McKune stated I suggest
minimizing the potential impact by removing as many trees as feasible from the
right-of-way.
Mr. Hyche asked does the NRCS have
some wording on flowways?
Mr. Petty responded FEMA does if
they do not. This is a proactive
issue. If we were going to try to build
our own system of removing trees by getting equipment to cut down trees we may
be able to apply for funding but not for cutting down trees.
Mr. Fennell asked what is our
current policy on private property?
Mr. Petty responded we do not
evaluate private property for a negative impact during a class three hurricane.
Mr. Fennell asked is there criteria
for evaluating bank clearing?
Mr. Petty responded no.
Mr. Hanks stated I am worried about
the pump station not working.
Mr. McKune stated there is nothing
you can do if the pump station does not run.
NSID and Sunshine have their own pump station.
Mr. Fennell stated you will flood
when the pumps do not go on. I
discovered areas close to the C-14 canal are filled in with sand to get them
under grade.
Mr. Frederick stated this is why the
canals are deeper on the west end of the District because there is a natural
grade of land. Therefore, they needed to
dig the canals deeper to get the fill onto the land.
Mr. Hanks asked was the SFWMD
criteria met?
Mr. McKune responded yes.
Mr. Fennell stated bring in the old
criteria. The big question is what is
impeding the water.
Mr. Hanks asked if one pump is down,
one is out for repairs, what level of flood protection
are we providing?
Mr. Fennell responded not good
protection. We are authorized by the
SFWMD to pump three of our pumps. We
have four pumps. We cannot legally turn
on the fourth one, but we do.
Mr. Frederick stated no we do
not. Only in the event
of an emergency unless one of the other three went down.
Mr. Fennell stated a few years ago,
we reached the 20 year wear on these pumps.
We discovered one of the pumps was bad.
Then we checked the others and discovered they were all bad. As a result we went in and replaced all of
them. In fact, we got into the hurricane
season and had one go down and actually rented a pump and had it sitting out
there. To make sure this did not happen
again, we replaced all of the pumps and put a fourth one in place. Fortunately we have a spare pump. We cannot have them go down. If they do not work, we are done. If a tree falls into a culvert and the water
does not flow out ,
the people in that area will be in trouble.
There are only two outfalls and the area is actually divided in
half. Actually there is one pump per
outfall and only one canal going to that outfall. It is not like there are multiple ways to
reach the pump. We do not even have
parallel paths.
Mr. Frederick stated because the
Sunshine canal has an outfall going right through the center. There is no way to get the east side and west
side connection. If one station did go
down, you cannot go through another station.
Mr. Fennell asked does anyone know
why we did not pump into their outfall?
Mr. Hanks responded because their
outfall is into the C-14 canal.
Mr. Fennell stated we could have
easily hooked our canals up to their pump.
Mr. Frederick stated I do not think
you can do that. You cannot hook one
District to another.
Mr. Petty stated Drainage Districts
have to be independent.
Mr. McKune stated it would not work
because the canal would have to be low enough, unless you have a dyke to
maintain a certain minimum level.
Mr. Fennell stated I see a couple of
places where our canals come close to the other District’s outfalls. If my pump station got blocked; I could pump
into their outfall.
Mr. Petty stated I have seen pumping
interconnects between Water Management Districts. The closest was Indian Trail and North Palm
Beach County Drainage Districts interconnecting. They have difficulty in Indian Trail getting
through to anyone.
Mr. Frederick stated we do not have
a problem in normal main events. Our
pump stations are all working.
Mr. Petty stated even in abnormal
rain events.
Mr. Frederick stated I cannot say
what would happen if we had a category five hurricane and it sat over us for
three days. Chances are we could not
keep up with something like that.
Mr. Fennell stated the bottom line
is we need criteria. Are there three
criteria?
Mr. Petty responded we came up with
some criteria.
Mr. Fennell stated one is go from
right-of-way to right-of-way or removing anything that might block the water
flow from off of the right-of-way.
Mr. Petty stated the next one is,
from top of bank to top of bank and the third is to allow biannuals
to be permitted so long as the homeowner has the expense while taking out any
tree we desire from right-of-way to right-of-way, which are going to be
non-ornamentals such as Australian Pines, Banyons and
ficus trees.
If the resident does not want to sign off on a permit, we will take it
out.
Mr. Frederick stated as long as we
can maneuver around or ultimately knock it down when we do the maintenance or
emergency work.
Mr. Fennell stated we do not have a
policy for trees.
Mr. Petty stated we asked the
engineer and he cannot give us any numbers or predictions.
Mr. McKune stated these canals are
very narrow, eight feet on one side. The
larger side is for maintenance purposes.
On one side, we cleared all the way back to the right-of-way. On the other side we cut the grass within 30
feet from the top of the bank. Anything
in from that will remain for maintenance purposes. We do maintenance all the time, such as
dredging.
Mr. Petty stated we will send a
backhoe out there.
Mr. Fennell asked do we need to do
some maintenance to prevent trees from falling in?
Mr. Frederick stated one resident
has ficus hedges along our property.
Mr. Petty stated which poses no
threat to the District at its present state.
It is only if you imagine it unmaintained and
growing to the height of 30 to 40 feet, can you see any harm to the drainage.
Mr. Fennell asked where on the plan
is this area indicated as a maintenance area?
Mr. McKune responded it is not
indicated specifically as a maintenance area.
There is five feet from the right-of-way on both sides. If we maintain from the top of bank on the
wide side, there would be 30 feet.
Mr. Petty stated when we looked at
the contract for removing the trees, the apartment side is five feet and our
side was the maintenance side.
Mr. Fennell asked what policy should
we have for the maintenance areas? Should there be a policy outside the
maintenance areas? In the maintenance
areas, we would remove the trees. There
should be a policy if the trees on a resident’s lot falls across the canal and
blocks it. Is the resident liable?
Mr. Petty responded it is an act of
god. The resident had no intention of
the tree falling down on you. It is like
his screen enclosure falling into the canal.
Mr. Lyles stated the same thing
would hold true with a tree on your property falling down on your neighbor’s
roof and damaged his home.
Mr. Hanks asked does the Board have
any liability if flooding occurs?
Mr. Lyles responded there is some
liability from failing to meet permit conditions that results in flooding that
otherwise would not have occurred, which damages someone’s property. If you are not maintaining the drainage
system properly and maintaining it negligently and flooding occurs and damages
someone’s property, we can find ourselves on the receiving end of a claim for
property loss. We could lose a case like
this. Trees falling into the canal are
an act of god. Whether it is on our
right-of-way or private property and blocks the flow of water, I do not believe
we will be incurring liability in this scenario.
Mr. Hanks stated if a road fell in
and flooded, this would be an entirely different situation.
Mr. Fennell stated or there was a
tree in our maintenance area we could have cleared up.
Mr. Lyles stated if trees in our
right-of-way or maintenance area fall down by an act of god and flooding
occurs, then we are not responsible versus if we allowed a culvert to get
soaked up or collapses because of shifting and it does not function anymore or
the system does not function in accordance with the way it was permitted. The permit does not require us to do anything
about the trees but the culverts are required to be open and flowing.
Mr. Fennell asked have we had this
type of situation before?
Mr. Petty responded not in 47
years. Not since CSID started.
Mr. Fennell stated the area is
different than it was 20 years ago.
Mr. Petty stated within the last 10
years, we had the greatest rainfall events in our history with floods of 15
inches. I do not mean there should be a
concern but I do not think there is an imminent danger. I think we have a great record. If we are going to go after the trees, you
should do this in steps. There is
nothing that says we have to go from not addressing the trees to removing every
single one.
Mr. Lyles stated I think the letter
the Board requested at the last meeting has now been finalized and sent
out. I am talking about the letter to
the residents saying “we are coming into your neighborhood and behind your home
and removing storm debris”. There is
nothing in the letter about removing a healthy tree. I think this could come back to haunt us if
we do so under the debris removal notice and contract we awarded. While we are there certain trees that are
determined to be a hazard to drainage are also going to be removed and you are
going to have a firestorm of negative reaction to that.
Mr. Fennell stated we removed all of
the trees across the canal. Do we have
an estimate of $1.4 million for removing everything from the maintenance areas?
Mr. Petty responded yes, from
right-of-way to right-of-way.
Mr. McKune stated we can tell the
contractor not to remove certain trees or we will start deducing from their
amount.
Mr. Lyles asked have you had any
discussions or investigated with the Planning Department of the City of
Mr. Petty responded we have not
spoken with the City of
Mr. Fennell stated I spoke to a
couple of people and they felt we needed to stand up and finally do this. Commissioner Levinson was talking about a
committee being formed to review the tree situation, not only on our canals,
but due to the fact a lot of trees fell down.
Perhaps in the end this could be attributed to trees that grew too
tall. I told him we would be more than
happy to assist him. Will it happen
right now? Probably not. We will see what happens because of the
election for the new Mayor and two new Commissioners. We will see if the political arena has
changed. I think we can work with the
city. The question is,
who in fact is responsible for reporting fallen trees, who is it reported to
and who will enforce it? One would say,
“CSID runs the water plant and they inform us”.
We would say, “you have the ordinance”. I think a lot can be done along those
lines. We need some criteria, which we
do not have of what is considered to be a dangerous tree to block flow.
Mr. Hyche stated this is like the
situation where behind the Auto Mall, there are trees,
which were planted when the Auto Mall was built as a buffer. They never maintained it. You can call Code Enforcement out there and
tell them we are not maintaining those trees and they will say, “those trees are on your property and you should maintain
them”.
Mr. Fennell stated then we will
remove them.
Mr. Hyche stated I am sure when
those trees were planted, it was with the understanding the Auto Mall would
maintain them.
Mr. Lyles stated Code Enforcement
said there is nothing you can do about it.
Our approach is trees on canal banks and right-of-way abutting private
property have to be maintained by the property
owner. We need to get the city to make
sure the Auto Mall is under compliance.
Mr. Petty stated this is a long
standing issue.
Mr. Lyles stated it is, however,
they are going to rip these trees out and not care about what it does to our
property.
Mr. Petty stated I know there are
going to be repercussions but we are spending almost $2 million to clean up the
existing tree issue. If we let the tree issue sit, it is probable by our estimates, half of the
trees were removed by Hurricane Wilma and half remain. Financially speaking, there is no financial
reason to go after these trees today. I
can take the money, put it in the bank, wait for the next hurricane and have
plenty of money to take care of the trees at that time.
Mr. Frederick stated I am not
suggesting you remove the trees. I am
saying these people need to be responsible like they should have been in the
first place.
Mr. Petty stated we have no
enforcement authority. We have to rely
on the City of
Mr. Fennell stated I think this is
an opportunity for us to make this change and I think we should. We need to step up and help them. Are you saying in certain areas, we actually
owned areas of the canal?
Mr. McKune responded yes.
Mr. Fennell asked are we responsible
for anything on this property including the trees?
Mr. Petty responded not for
maintenance purposes.
Mr. Fennell asked is it our land?
Mr. Petty responded yes.
Mr. Fennell asked can we dig up a
tree if we want to?
Mr. Petty responded if we own the
property we can clear it.
Mr. Lyles stated this is an
incorrect statement. It is on property
owned fee simple by the District and no easement is extended to require the
private property owner to install any landscaping. I recommend you check before you start
cutting healthy trees.
Mr. Hanks asked is there a way to
find out what trees are remaining and what was removed?
Mr. Petty responded the majority of
the trees are Australian Pines.
Mr. Lyles stated those are what we
call nuisance trees.
Mr. Petty stated you cannot classify
it this way. Most of the Australian
Pines that fell were not on the top of bank.
All of them were at the water’s edge and were growing wild. We have information from out sister Districts
who had done a detailed study on this particular tree. If the root is at the water’s edge, you get
root rot, which makes it unstable, which is why they fall. A tree above the water line, not by species
but by location cannot be deemed any more topable by
a wind than any other tree.
Mr. Fennell asked who said this?
Mr. Petty responded a tree expert.
Mr. Fennell stated I can show you
where some Australian Pines fell across a resident’s property.
Mr. Petty stated I do not think
so. This gentleman has experience from
Hurricane Andrew. No tree can survive
all winds. We had cyclone activity
during this storm. I am going to put
this guy against your eyewitness account.
Mr. Hanks asked did you get in touch
with Arbor Tree on what they are seeing out there?
Mr. Petty responded I can go either
way. I am concerned with the
repercussions. I am not pushing this
Board to try to make what is clearly a difficult decision while Arbor Green is
on this canal. Clearly we can do this at
a later date. This is a straightforward
tree cutting job we are being asked to do.
You do not have to make this decision today.
Mr. Fennell stated if you do not cut
the trees now, I do not think they will get cut.
Mr. Hanks asked can you confirm what
percentage of exotic/nuisance species has been removed?
Mr. McKune responded it depends on
the area. Some areas are totally cleared
of nuisance species.
Mr. Hanks asked have you walked all
of the canals?
Mr. McKune responded not all of
them.
Mr. Hanks asked is there more of an
issue with the exotics or evasive species?
Mr. McKune responded I do not like
to use the term evasive. This is not an
evasive tree removal program.
Mr. Hanks stated I am trying to make
this palatable and improve upon our plan.
Mr. Fennell asked what do you recommend?
Mr. McKune responded clearing within
five feet of the right-of-way. If we are
on the shallow side, we will clear all the way to the right-of-way. On the wide side, I would go out at least 25
feet. I can justify any tree within this
confined band should be removed for maintenance purposes.
Mr. Hanks stated we need to issue a
change order for a scope of work.
Mr. McKune stated correct, or we can
go with an estimate from the contractor, which we can reduce if we do not
remove all of the trees.
Mr. Fennell stated I think we have
to do this. We should write a letter to
the city asking them to inform the residents they should remove the trees we
are not responsible for in our right-of-way.
The cases here are clear from an engineering standpoint of why we want
to do this. The reasons for not doing it
have nothing to do with flooding.
Mr. Petty stated there has been no
example of a flooding problem.
Mr. Fennell stated I think it is
clear that is exactly what we are afraid of.
I agree with the engineer in that this would be the right thing to do to
insure we have good flood control.
Mr. Petty stated if this is true,
why does no other Drainage District have such a policy and we have not been
able to institute a policy for 30 years?
Mr. Fennell responded it is not
true. I can tell you of one District who
has a 15 mile long canal that does not have any trees along it.
Mr. Petty stated SFWMD has the
Mr. Fennell asked why do these
canals have trees along them?
Mr. Petty responded I have no idea.
Mr. Fennell stated it is because
they do not want responsibility for the drainage. What is your rationale?
Mr. Petty responded I do not think
the District can afford it because if you take this policy, it says only the
District can say what happens within 30 feet of a resident’s backyard. Granted we own it, but it is 30 feet in his backyard
or five or ten feet in another backyard, and the only
thing we are going to allow to grow there is grass. I am going to tell this homeowner he has to
maintain it. It is going to be like the
box cuts that happened in the Dells. We
told the Dells they have to maintain the green space as we were not going
to. They planted all types of plantings
there, but did not maintain it in a way we expected them to, which was to grow
grass and mow it every week. What is to
keep these people from saying, “you will have to maintain it”. This is what I
think you may end up with.
Mr. Fennell stated I think you are
right and this is what we are going to have to do. What you are saying is,
previous policies have shown people will not maintain their right-of-way. There is an issue of cost. If Mr. McKune’s
evaluation is correct and this is the right thing to do, then this is the only
recourse we have. Previous history has
shown it will be done by decree.
Mr. Petty stated we have arterials
in our drainage system. It would be very
much in the District’s existing policy to say you would do a clearing of the
arterial canals.
Mr. Fennell stated you need to start
looking at what is going through your pumps and start clearing from there.
Mr. Hanks stated clearing from the
pumps back is a good start. In Sunshine,
staff cleared from right-of-way to right-of-way and got the City of
Mr. Fennell stated if this is true,
that does not account for the argument of no one cutting down all of the trees.
Mr. Petty stated not throughout the
District, just in specific areas.
Mr. Fennell stated I would like for
you to prove it does not hurt anything.
Mr. Petty stated you are making a
statement that the system will function as a whole, although I cannot agree
there will not be localized flooding if a pipe gets clogged.
Mr. Hyche stated you cannot
guarantee it no mater what.
Mr. Petty stated you can do the best
you can.
Mr. Hyche stated for the most part,
the east side has to be done because there are Australian Pines for miles.
Mr. Fennell stated the Australian
Pines were not even planted by CSID, but were planted by Westinghouse.
Mr. Hanks stated if we remove all of
the Australian Pines, we remove the seed source.
Mr. Frederick stated we have some
places where there are plants growing on the edge of the canal. We need permission to remove them.
Mr. Petty stated I believe some
action would be better than no action.
Mr. Fennell stated some compromises
are going to have to be made. Lets remove all of the exotic/nuisance trees.
Mr. Petty stated I will ask you to
call them specific species rather than exotic/evasive because we may have an
issue. Our responsibilities do not
include controlling exotic tree species.
However, going after any trees potentially harming the District facility
is within our charter.
Mr. Fennell stated lets remove all
the ficus, Australian Pines and any nuisance trees.
Mr. Petty stated we should remove
all trees the engineer deemed to be a danger to the District’s arterials. This gives you the broadest scope.
Mr. Fennell stated lets instruct
Arbor Tree to also remove all ficus, Australian Pines
or nuisance trees or any other trees the engineer may deem dangerous to the
waterway within our right-of-way.
Mr. Hanks stated I would like to
restrict this to the use of the east/west outfall canals in
Mr. Fennell stated where I live, we
have culverts and any trees that fall in there, are going to block the
culverts. Why is this any different than
the main arterials?
Mr. Petty responded the main
arterials affect 50% to 100% of the residents.
Localized flooding is just that; the people who live closest to the
arterials have better drainage than these people will ever have regardless of
what you do. I cannot give you equal
drainage. If I am furthest away, I am
going to get water draining away from me before you see the water levels go
down because you have to wait until all the other canals drain. There are advantages and disadvantages. There is no way to make the entire system the
same for everyone. I cannot do it with
water pressure, water quality and I especially cannot do it with drainage, but
that does not mean we cannot remove the trees.
Mr. Fennell stated even though my
neighbors and I live next to an outfall, they are not going to get any benefits
because of the culvert near the park and the one on Ramblewood. I think the pattern repeats throughout the
neighborhood. You certainly cannot block
the C-14 canal, but the other ones are actually in more danger from being
blocked because they are smaller in diameter.
Mr. Hanks stated there is too much
to piece together right now. Is there
any reason why we need to make a decision today?
Mr. Petty responded I see no
immediate threat.
Mr. Hanks stated Arbor Tree is here
for 150 days and we are 10 days into the contract.
Mr. Petty stated you may be spending
excessive dollars, but due diligence should always be the first course of
action.
Mr. Hanks stated I would like to get
a concept from Mr. McKune on how he wants to have this done, what canals and
where.
Mr. McKune stated I would be happy
to do so but I need some guidelines/criteria.
I prefer going from right-of-way to right-of-way if money and politics
were not an object.
Mr. Hanks asked what canals do you
think will be more affected by this?
When I go out there, I want to see what trees are coming out and which
trees are still standing.
Mr. McKune stated we can do that,
but it is a question of trying to minimize the potential. On the narrow side of the canal where you
have 35 feet from the top of bank and wetlands, we have a 100 foot Australian Pine. All I can do is
minimize the problem.
Mr. Fennell stated at this point
address what you can. I think there are
additional dangers out there we have not addressed.
Mr. Hanks stated if we do not take a
holistic approach, we could be spending a great deal of money and not get
anything for our money.
Mr. Fennell stated I think this is
the best money we have spent.
Mr. Petty stated I do not think it
will be the last money we spend.
Mr. Fennell stated but this will be
the best time to do this until the next hurricane hits. The amount of damage in
Mr. Hanks stated $12,000,000 worth
of damage will cost $150 per household.
Mr. Petty stated we will not stop
there because this probably will need additional maintenance. I think you answered the questions before. I would like to see a study showing what
happens to the water as it reaches the top of bank and the floor pads of the
road, which are a foot to a foot and a half from the top of the road. Before you start saying there is going to be
catastrophic flooding if the trees fall in, we will model it. We can say how many trees it may take but we can
only make assumptions that these pipes are blocked and the water is past the top
of bank. We currently have no model but
we can make one.
Mr. McKune stated we can prepare a
model and do so fairly easily but it is expensive because we have to create
brand new models.
Mr. Fennell stated if we authorize a
study, we have to prepare a model and it will be another three months out by
the time we actually take action. Where
do you think Arbor Tree is going to be at that point?
Mr. McKune responded gone.
Mr. Fennell asked what cost would we
incur by delaying this decision?
Mr. McKune responded I do not know.
Mr. Petty stated you may gain the
justification for the residents who cry out, “don’t take my tree” and just
might have the poof for the tree to come down because you have the hydraulic
model showing catastrophic flooding will occur.
From past experience in talking about trees coming down and from present
experience, from the people who have called since we laid out the limited door
hangers, people are going to want to save the trees they have in their
backyards that are in our right-of-way.
Do you have a document saying, “catastrophic
damage or flooding may occur”? This
would be very helpful.
Mr. Fennell responded four months
from now, when Arbor Tree is gone and it now costs $3 million and do not remove
the trees, it would be nice to have a document saying it was presented to the
Board.
Mr. Petty stated I do not know what
we are protecting the residents from.
Mr. Fennell stated we are protecting
them from flooding. I think we are
saying, we want to ignore the flooding potential by
asking for more information. I think the
time is right to do this.
Mr. Hanks stated the time is right
to see where we stand in terms of flood protection. We had initial criteria set up years ago
where the amount of storage was provided based on how much open space there
was.
Mr. Fennell stated it was based on buildout.
Mr. Hanks stated the Permit Criteria
Manual was based on the amount of open space, not on a set number. If you decrease the storage, you decrease the
need.
Mr. Fennell stated the problem is
any model based on what you are thinking about doing is one taking into account
the blockage of individual canals. The premises
for the whole argument were based on the canals working. If the canals do not work, the drainage does
not work. This was clear from the
initial study.
Mr. Hanks stated we can finish the
floor projection when the model comes back.
Mr. McKune stated I will provide the
permit and model to Mr. Hanks.
SEVENTH ORDER OF
BUSINESS Consideration of
Permit Requests
A.
Mr. McKune stated this is a
modification to an existing permit issued some time ago to add a 3.5 acre
parking lot. The calculations were
reviewed by our office. The runoff
discharges into the Sawgrass Expressway canal. We agree the project meets the District’s
criteria and recommend approval within our standard proviso.
Mr. Fennell stated since the site is
designed with no emergency outfall and zero discharge drainage system, we
should inspect the storm lines.
Mr. McKune stated there is an
outfall.
Mr. Hanks stated it looks like their
parking lot is a foot higher than the lot.
Mr. McKune stated I do not know why.
Mr. Hanks stated no pre-treatment is
required. Is the water quality being
taken care of in the canal?
Mr. Petty responded it is being
taken care of in the conservation area.
The District does not maintain the canal system. We are not trying to get nutrient removal in
the canal per se.
Mr. McKune stated all of the water
quality is done on-site.
Mr. Hanks stated there is no water
quality treatment on the site. When the
initial permit was approved three or four years ago, it was for institutional
use. This does not exempt them from
water quality but I believe the west basin provides for water quality. NSID also provides them water treatment.
Mr. Petty stated NSID has a lake
system, not a canal system.
Mr. Hanks stated we need to
establish whether there is a canal system for the west basin that CSID provides
water quality to. Otherwise, we will be
losing an opportunity to correct any past errors.
Mr. Petty stated the other issue may
be while the District has their permit, it cannot be held accountable but all
new construction was. We may not be
doing water retention requirements within our system even though we have
Mr. McKune responded 17 acres.
Mr. Petty asked will we delay
anything by doing further research?
Mr. Lyles responded you could
approve this permit, subject to the engineer confirming any applicable water
quality standards are met.
On
MOTION by Mr. Hanks seconded by Mr. Fennell with all in favor the stormwater management permit request submitted by
B.
Mr. Fennell asked is this site currently
under construction?
Mr. McKune responded yes. They are building a classroom addition on a
1.3 acre building area with .41 acre of impervious area. The stormwater is
routed through the existing drainage system, which ultimately discharges into
the C-14 canal. There is water quality
treatment provided through an exfiltration trench.
Mr. Fennell asked why are we
discharging directly into the C-14 canal?
Mr. McKune responded I do not know.
Mr. Hanks asked are they maintaining
the appropriate perimeter around the C-14?
Mr. Petty responded the interconnects on the C-14 should always be at an
elevation that would do just what you are saying. They only reason they would be allowed is due
to the cost of running pipe.
Mr. Hanks stated do they need to
provide pre-treatments?
Mr. McKune responded yes, under
their SFWMD permit.
Mr. Petty stated we can approve this
with them being at risk with whatever other agency they must submit to. We are not guaranteeing them their drainage
will be approved by any other agency.
On
MOTION by Mr. Hanks seconded by Mr. Fennell with all in favor the stormwater management permit request submitted by the
School Board of Broward County for a classroom addition at
EIGHTH ORDER OF
BUSINESS Staff Reports
A. Attorney
Mr. Lyles stated since the last
meeting, two significant government meetings took place, which may have some
impact on CSID. Two and a half weeks ago
there was a local public hearing for the Broward County Legislative Delegation. I was not present at this meeting and no bill
was taken up at that meeting involving CSID.
However, they discussed a bill to transfer the Sunshine Water Control
District from an independent Special District, similar to this one, to a
dependent Special District of the City of
Mr. Fennell stated our lobbying interests
are solely for CSID.
Mr. Lyles stated you need to confirm
there is no joint lobbying effort on behalf of the SWCD and its struggles with
Mr. Petty stated you are jointly
engaged with Mr. Book with the SWCD. Mr.
Book was asked to look out for CSID’s best interests
during this legislative session. An act
by
Mr. Fennell stated our lobbying
interests are to pay for lobbying interests pertaining to CSID. We will not pay for any other interests for
any other group.
Mr. Lyles stated it is not our
intention to pay Mr. Book to lobby for Sunshine. It is to lobby our District, if we have a
position to lobby.
Mr. Petty stated I think we are in
compliance with all of the objectives and the direction is to protect CSID’s best interest.
Mr. Lyles stated I would like to
discuss some semantics. Mr. Petty
believes CSID’s best interests are to fight SWCD’s fight. I
believe to use those funds to fight SWCD’s fight is
not something within our power or our best interest. I want to make sure we do not have any
disagreements in between meetings and the Board is giving us clear
direction. It is not just what is in our
best interest, such as, making sure things do not happen in other District’s
that have other battles to fight. The
reason why we were paying for Mr. Book, as well as NSID was we both had
codification bills filed with the legislative delegation and amendments were
being made to those bills without our knowledge. We wanted to make sure they did not
substantially alter the legislation, creating a framework for this District to
operate. We did not pay Mr. Book to
handle something that only affected NSID.
Each District was paying a Lobbyist
to watch its own codification bill pending before the Broward Legislative
Delegation and the Florida Legislature.
There is no bill pending relating to CSID. There is only the bill relating to the
SWCD. I want to make sure my
representations or understanding of the Board’s direction in the past is
correct. If they are incorrect, I was to
make sure I corrected any misstatement I have made regarding the Board’s
position. I want it to be made clear
that Mr. Book is not using CSID funds to fund his activities to lobby against
the bill for the SWCD. I would like
clarification from the Board in terms of the direction of staff.
Mr. Hanks asked is SWCD resisting?
Mr. Petty responded yes. I think the CDD is in the best interest of
their residents. They do not believe the
City of
Mr. Fennell asked is it because
their streets are across the canal?
Mr. Petty responded I think it is
because they had nothing better to do.
The instructions to date have been for Mr. Lyles to protect the interest
of CSID during this legislative session.
If any issue comes up you believe negatively impacts this District, you
are to let us know. The SWCD is
perfectly capable of fighting its own battles. We do not have to be involved. I think your involvement with the lobbyist is
to protect your interest during the session and not fight SWCD’s
fight. Do not think for a minute the
bill being pushed against the SWCD is exactly the same type of mechanism you
were staring at four weeks prior. I
think you are concerned and want the information, but certainly we do not need to
use CSID’s dollars to fight SWCD’s
battle.
Mr. Fennell stated make it clear to
Mr. Book we cannot spend CSID dollars for the defense of SWCD. We cannot stretch our interest too much on
them. There are common areas where we
have other interests and general safeguards for all special interest
groups. We want him to look out for our
interests but we currently do not have any items in the legislature.
Mr. Petty stated I spoke to Mr. Book
and we know of no direct threat or any other similar action but he is wary and
watchful. If there are going to be
multiple voices coming from the District we should specify what they are
responsible for so we do not find ourselves in these situations. If the Board wishes to direct District
Counsel or the manager to relinquish a position, you should let us know so we
do not have a conflict.
Mr. Lyles stated all I attempted to
do was to communicate to the city what the Board’s intentions were. It went no further than that. There is obviously a difference of opinion
among your staff about the method to be used to go about engaging and
protecting the CSID Board from things that might happen. You have a manager and a Board. I think the Board sets the policy. I certainly understand whatever policy is
being espoused outside of one of these meetings by any staff member including
myself, is going to conform with what the Board has set. I do not ever intend to give the Board its
policy or dictate policies to the Board but we need to have a cohesive
communication with the rest of the government agencies that might impact this
District in
Mr. Petty asked what do you think
the downside is on your scenario? I thought we had good communication with the
city and our President had been in contact with the city. I went to several informational meetings with
city staff discussing our cleanup of hurricane debris and I have been in
contact with the City of
Mr. Fennell responded I received
direct calls from the Mayor about our communication with them. The attorney has in fact helped us through
political and legal matters and he has a perfect right to do this.
Mr. Petty stated I would be happy to
defer to counsel.
Mr. Fennell stated the Mayor called
me saying, “I understand CSID, NSID and others are going to band together and
hire Mr. Book to kill this bill”. He
asked me what we are doing. Of course this
was the first time I heard this and said, “we have a lobbyist
there as far as I know and we are not going to become dependent as far as I
know”. The problem is this is not our
fight.
Mr. Petty stated we would like to
see the crux of an independent District being converted to a dependent
District.
Mr. Fennell stated we have very
specific issues we can get involved in as a District, mainly as it pertains to
our own District and doing our job.
Mr. Petty stated it is not my intent
to be an independent voice and I am not trying to make this a personal
issue. I have nothing to gain. If you prefer the interaction between this
District and the City of
Mr. Fennell stated we just affirmed
that a relationship as far as Mr. Book goes is we have a certain budget every
year and we cannot spend this money to protect other people’s interest. As far as maintaining relationships with the
city, those will be maintained at a number of different levels. Your job is to apprise the city of what we
are doing, how we are going about it and in many cases, to quall their
fears. If they have issues with that,
then I will step in or the attorney will step in to help you out. However, I do not know you as the manager can
perform all of the functions.
Mr. Petty stated the structure is
such that all communications from the Board go through me for implementation
and goes from me to you for results.
Without that structure, the manager function does not work. It then turns into an
administrative/secretarial function or duty listed function, which I am more
than capable and willing to do.
Mr. Fennell stated we have several
different groups reporting to the Board directly; one is the attorney, another
is the company we use for our audits.
Mr. Petty stated you hired them
during this meeting but the instructions from them go through me. Whatever your directions are, I will do my
best to follow but the definition of the position is such as it exists now is
that it would go through the manager’s office.
Mr. Fennell stated it also has to go
through me because you report to the Board.
Mr. Petty stated this is the
hourglass function. There are the
supervisors, the manager and implementation.
Mr. Fennell stated the policy is we
are interested in protecting CSID, but are not going to spend funds to protect
another District.
Mr. Petty stated we are already in
that position and I have defined that as the instruction to Mr. Book. Your instructions are to look out for
anything during this legislative session negatively impacting CSID. I am looking for a motion to this affect.
Mr. Hanks asked do we actually need
a motion?
Mr. Lyles responded the manager has
impressed upon one. I was satisfied with
expressing your consensus this was the decision to be made. If it helps to clarify the instructions, I am
all for it.
Mr. Petty stated it does not make it
clearer. I am looking for a motion
because it causes action.
On
MOTION by Mr. Fennell seconded by Mr. Hanks with all in favor Mr. Book will be
instructed to look out for CSID interests but CSID will not spend money
defending other Districts.
Mr. Lyles stated last week the
Broward County Management and Efficiency Study Committee met and requested
representatives from a number of Districts to attend. I was unable to attend but I asked an
associate to in my steed. I provided the
Board with a written summary of what took place at the meeting and do not need
the Board to take any action. However, I
want you to be aware, this group, which is supposed to be reviewing efficiency
and management practices of Broward County Government and its subordinate
agencies, is looking at Special Districts throughout
Mr. Petty stated the request is not
for public records. Mr. Lyles received
all of this information. It is already
available in his office, he just does not know
it. It was received by his office weeks
before the request even came in. For all
Districts Mr. Lyles works on, electronic copies of all documents in our office
were provided to his office. What Mr.
Lyles is asking for is to represent this District’s position at various
meetings being held at the county or state level. This is what I told him I would not
participate in. I told Mr. Michael
Pawelczyk I could not fulfill this request without the Board telling me to get
involved. This group has been trying to
get a District of stature outside of the East Broward County Water Control
District to come to these meetings for more years than I can remember. We have avoided that historically. My predecessors have because this local
government agency does not have oversight over this independent District. To go to the meeting would give them provenance
to continue their actions. We saw no
reason for it. We are not a subsidiary
of
Mr. Fennell stated I authorize you.
Mr. Petty stated as much as I
respect you, you have no power as an individual. You only have the ability to instruct staff
as a Board. Not that I would not follow
your wishes, but the Board must act in that capacity.
Mr. Fennell stated your stance was you
would not be involved in politics. This
is a political issue.
Mr. Petty stated we normally do not
support candidates.
Mr. Fennell stated the attorney does
report to the Board and we are the ones who chose him and voted on the
engineering firm.
Mr. Petty stated I need to know who
has the authority according to the Board, to represent the District.
Mr. Fennell stated when staff cannot
agree on issues, obviously I step in and make
decisions for the full Board. Mr. Moyer
did not fly to
Mr. Petty stated we will step back
accordingly.
Mr. Fennell stated as far as this
information, I understand your opinion.
Mr. Petty stated not anymore. I will keep my opinions to myself in the
future. Mr. Lyles has the information by
CD.
Mr. Lyles stated the CD provided to
my office has all of the minutes and all of the records for all of the
Districts my office has something to do with.
I made a specific request for specific items related to CSID and this
Management Efficiency Study, which I do not perceive for a moment as
jurisdiction over CSID but I do believe they need to be dealt with
effectively. I cannot be in a position
of being told staff is not going to give me my information. I need to get things when I ask for
them. To say they are on a CD with all of
the other Districts, is not appropriate. I want to work effectively on your behalf
with all of the staff. I think we need
to air this out right now. It is unprecedented
for me to have to call the President of this Board and ask for direction and I
have not done that. However, I am
bringing this up today because if you are going to be effectively represented
by me and my firm, you need the full participation of all of your staff in that
effort. This needs to be done in an
effective way; not piecemealed or stonewalled.
Mr. Fennell asked what information
do you need?
Mr. Lyles responded there was a
request by my associate for the number of residents in the District, the level
of the assessments and for a copy of the current adopted final budget. Of course I received all kinds of documents
during the course of the year but they are the official records of the
District.
Mr. Petty stated if you are asking
for the attorney to direct staff, it is at the pleasure of the Board.
Mr. Hanks stated if Mr. Lyles needs
something, give it to him.
Mr. Petty stated not a problem.
Mr.
Hanks stated if you need to ask Mr. Lyles for something, ask him.
Mr. Petty stated we would be happy
to give Mr. Lyles anything he needs at any time.
Mr. Lyles stated I very much appreciate
it.
Mr. Hanks stated we need everyone to
work together.
B. Engineer
There not being any, the next item
followed.
C. Manager
1. Monthly Water & Sewer Charts
2. Utility Billing Work Orders
3. Complaints Received/Resolved
Mr. Petty stated there is nothing
material to report to the Board.
NINTH ORDER OF BUSINESS Supervisor Requests and
Audience Comments
There not being any, the next item
followed.
TENTH ORDER OF BUSINESS Approval of February
Financials and Check Registers
On MOTION by Mr. Fennell seconded by Mr.
Hanks with all in favor the General Fund invoices for January 31, 2005 in the
amount of $287,292.38 and February 28, 2006 in the amount of $461,821.27 and
the Water and Sewer Fund invoices for January 31, 2006 in the amount of $1,609,728.95
and February 28, 2006 in the amount of $1,272,783.22 were approved.
Mr. Fennell stated the only issue
remaining is in regards to the tree removal policy. We may need to have a special meeting to
resolve this matter. It is obviously up
to the Board to do this. I would like
for Mr. Petty to write the pros and cons for such a policy and provide to each
Board member. We do not have a lot of
time to do this and I think we are going to waste money if we do not get
something started. Right now we have a
deadlock between how far we want to go and we have to discuss this with a third
member. I think we are going to break
some ground and actually come up with a policy because we do not have one.
Mr. McKune stated tomorrow I will
tell the contractor not to do anything until the Board makes a decision.
Mr. Fennell stated unfortunately we
are trying to decide whether or not to do anything. Can you have this list of pros and cons to
us, Mr. Petty in two weeks?
Mr. Petty responded I will do my
best.
ELEVENTH ORDER OF BUSINESS Adjournment
There being no further business, the
meeting was adjourned at
Glen Hanks Robert
Fennell
Secretary President